[IRP] FW: Charter of Human Rights and Principles for the Internet

Henrik Almström henrik
Thu Aug 19 03:07:04 EEST 2010

Hi everyone!

Really interesting comments below - and good work from the creators!

Sorry for late comments from my side but here are some on the comments
in the thread and some new ones. I will try to attend the meeting
tomorrow, just hoping that computer and connection will work fine.

I actually don't have a principle problems that businesses enjoy human
rights - especially the right of being treated as equal before the law.
I'm not an expert in HR law but I don't think that implies that humans
and companies are treated as equals but instead that actors with the
same legal status are treated equal. What are the effects of changing it
to people? Does it mean that a company (or even a CSO/NGO) do not enjoy
the rights of the charter at all? 

Relating to the above; is there a reason that there is no list of
There are a number of words and concepts that could be defined to avoid
misunderstandings. However I realise that such a list could cause lot's
of discussions and maybe delays in the process. And as was mentioned by
Olivier regarding defamation it can sometimes be good not to define. The
latter could however be solved through a definition linking directly to
the CCPR where it is an open concept as well.

2) c. states that "everyone, in particular governments and business
should undertake". I have two comments on this: 1- why is it givernment
and business in particular only here and not on several more places such
as net neutrality or sustainability? 2- As mentioned above I don't have
a problem to give companies rights - but to give them obligations is
more problematic. Of course depending on the nature of the charter (and
correct me if i'm wrong) - but if it is supposed to be signed by states
like the UDHR or the ICCPR everyone can have rights but only the signing
states can have obligations. This means in this case the obligation
should be on the state to create a legal environment where business is
forced undertake the steps towards inclusion. On the other hand if the
charter is supposed to be a transcription of a general set of norms it
could include obligations for anyone.

2) e. "the principle of inclusive design" is a concept that could be
defined to easier communicate the content of the section.

6)d. 7)b. and 9)d. could be linked together. I agree with the current
positions but to 6)d. "such restrictions should include limitations as
decribed in section 7)b. and 9)d. of this Charter."could be added. To
7)b. "Such prohibition shall always comply with section 6)d. of this
Charter" could be added. And to 9)d. "Such protection shall always
comply with section 6)d. of this Charter" could be added.

9)f. As behavioural tracking is part of the business model of just about
any business involving internet advertising (like Gmail Facebook etc) i
think a total prohibition is problematic. What would you think of the
following addition? "Any agreement regarding access to online services
that includes acceptance of such surveillance shall clearly state the
nature of the surveillance"

10)c. The last sentence: Is it ok if you just are notified afterwards if
data is transferred to a third party? Or is this just in the case of
accidental transfer? if not accidental transfer I believe (preferrably
active consent) should be required (which i think is the case in many
data privacy laws)

11) last part.I'm not sure about the meaning of "Open Educational
Resources" but as I am reading this it implies that it should not be
allowed to commercialise learning materials in a traditional copyright
way. I'm definitely pro Open source, FOSS, CC etc. but i don't
necessarily think that it should be totally prohibited the selling and
copyrighting of a newly developed pedagogic mathematics book. I think
such a prohibition could affect the developments of new pedagogics

I think what is mentioned in section 12)b about the fair use exceptions
is the way to cover this issue rather than prohibiting the use of
copyright in a certain way. That would also target states rather than
private actors which i think is an easier way to go.

12)c. I know that some (maybe all) of you might not agree with me but I
think there's a lot of basic research that could never benefit the
society of it was not commercialised through copyright or patenting in
an early stage because of the high costs of testing and developing
before reaching market. I actually believe that the state very well
could play the role of financing certain basic research which if
commercialized could benefit the society. This would not be possible at
all with the current phrasing without exceptions.

14) b.How about adding "and shall comply with section 10) of this
Charter" in the end?

See you tomorrow!
/Henrik Almstrom

On Wed, 2010-08-18 at 15:51 +0200, Max Senges wrote:
> Hi folks,
> I hurried and returned from the pamir mountains early in order to join
> our call tomorrow :-)
> A big thanks to Wolfgang and the other experts for developing the
> latest version of the charter.
> I have added some first personal comments and some language to the
> google doc and am in the process to consult with some colleagues.
> Section 1
> https://docs1.google.com/document/edit?id=10dSNV0OMkFEZ3KrVDWCXou1an6gJP6uqJQeZPYlHCAo&hl=en&authkey=CIWByMwN#
> Section 2
> https://spreadsheets2.google.com/ccc?key=tGANSnLsqQuRjiuEGsGUJkg&hl=en#gid=0 (please hover over the cells with an orange triangle)
> Looking forward to the call tomorrow.
> Max  
> "The future is not what it used to be"
> Karl Valentin 
> ...........................................................................
> Max Senges
> Berlin
> www.maxsenges.com
> Mobile: 01622122755
> On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 12:01 PM, M I Franklin <cos02mf at gold.ac.uk>
> wrote:
>         Dear All
>         Unfortunately I'm unable to attend tomorrow's meeting due to
>         another engagement though I might manage to be there for the
>         last part.
>         Have read the latest version of the charter with great
>         interest. Congratulations to Wolfgang. Meryem, and Rikke for
>         all their work and expertise in producing this working
>         document.
>         I have some brief comments/queries for the discussion
>         tomorrow  based on the current version and points raised by
>         others in terms of language and wording.
>         1) the Title; The Charter, and its sister-documents (e.g. APC
>         Charter, Bill of Rights) have run with several sorts of word
>         combinations in their titles; Internet Rights; Internet Rights
>         and Principles; Human Rights and Principles for the Internet.
>         I'm not a legal expert but wording, and word-order does matter
>         in this setting so I'm interested to hear more about the
>         current title-wording in view of tactical issues around 'human
>         rights' being a red flag for certain stakeholders. ;
>         2) I concur with the need to talk about 'digital inclusion'
>         vs. 'digital divide'. However, the latter does exist so need
>         this be an either/or choice?
>         3) I defer to the expertise of Michael G., Ben W., Wolfgang
>         and others about FoE and privacy wording.
>         4) Thinking ahead in terms of how terms of
>         reference/technologies change (e.g. inroads being made by
>         mobile internet communications) I was wondering what the
>         shelf-life was of the term 'Internet'; would it be possible to
>         delineate this term a bit more in the preamble?
>         5) re. the discussion about 'people' vs. 'citizens' vs.
>         'users';  The first is the most flexible as it encompasses
>         communities and individuals; those who can/want to access and
>         use the internet as well as those who don't . Btw, 'netizens'
>         is a term that is also in use in some quarters.
>         6) On ownership; I concur with Wolfgang's point; the Charter
>         needs to be launched and made available to a wide range of
>         parties if it is to gain any so a bottom-up approach is all
>         the better.
>         Looking forward to reading the minutes for tomorrow; Is there
>         any chance of recording this meeting - does HiDef Conferencing
>         allow for this?
>         All the best
>         MF
>         --On Tuesday, August 17, 2010 17:21 +0200 Anriette Esterhuysen
>         <anriette at apc.org> wrote:
>                 Dear Lisa and others
>                 I have been meaning to ask why the language 'Digital
>                 divide' was
>                 introduced. We never used it in the APC IR Charter.
>                 As Michael points out, the term digital inclusion has
>                 been preferred by
>                 most organisations working in developing countries for
>                 the last 10
>                 years.
>                 Michael's language is perhaps a bit long.. but I think
>                 it contains
>                 important points so forms a good basis.
>                 The challenge with the term digital inclusion is that
>                 it relates to so
>                 many different rights but accessibility and
>                 affordability are
>                 fundamental
>                 Best
>                 Anriette
>                 On Tue, 2010-08-17 at 15:53 +0100, Lisa Horner wrote:
>                         Hi all
>                         Please see salient comments below from Michael
>                         concerning digital
>                         inclusion.
>                         Looking forward to conference call to discuss
>                         all comments this
>                         Thursday 19th at 15.00 UK/16.00 CET.  Please
>                         could you let me know if
>                         you are planning to join?  Please also try to
>                         submit all comments in
>                         writing by the end of tomorrow (Wednesday) so
>                         that we can collate them
>                         and discuss them systematically during the
>                         call.
>                         All the best,
>                         Lisa
>                         From: Michael Gurstein
>                         [mailto:gurstein at gmail.com]
>                         Sent: 15 August 2010 15:20
>                         To: Lisa Horner
>                         Subject: RE: [IRP] Charter of Human Rights and
>                         Principles for the
>                         Internet
>                         Hi Lisa,
>                                Below I suggest some  (unfortunately
>                         still
>                                awkward) alternative language under the
>                         "Overcoming the
>                                Digital Divide" section I.2.c as below
>                         (including changing the
>                                heading) .   The term Digital Inclusion
>                         is now coming into
>                                more general use than Digital Divide
>                         based in part on a
>                                recognition that there will always (in
>                         a fractal world) be
>                                "divides" while broad based "inclusion"
>                         while difficult is
>                                achievable. The notion of the "digital
>                         divide" also
>                                (inappropriately) tends to disempower
>                         and imply dependency on
>                                the part of those on the "wrong" side
>                         or the "divide".
>                                Ensuring Digital Inclusion
>                                An Internet based society and economy
>                         requires that all have
>                                an equal opportunity for active and
>                         effective participation in
>                                and through the Internet.  To this end
>                          active support should
>                                be available for self-managed and other
>                         community
>                                based facilities  and services to
>                         ensure universal digital
>                                inclusion . Digital inclusion requires
>                         the opportunity for
>                                access to, and effective use of the
>                         range of digital media,
>                                communication platforms and devices for
>                         information management
>                                and processing.
>                                To ensure the opportunity for universal
>                         digital access and
>                                use, among the measures that must be
>                         put in place are public
>                                internet access points located (with
>                         easy physical and
>                                disability oriented design access ) in
>                         among other
>                                locations,  telecentres, libraries,
>                         community centers, clinics
>                                or schools.  This must be accompanied
>                         by support for the
>                                effective use of this access  as well
>                         as access obtained via
>                                mobile media. This would be provided
>                                through  appropriate training, social
>                         and organizational
>                                mediation and facilitation, and design
>                         and governance
>                                regimes including support for the use
>                         of the range of Internet
>                                enabled services such as e-government,
>                         e-education, e-health
>                                and facilitation and support for
>                         locally based initiatives and
>                                participation in content creation,
>                         e-governance, service
>                                design and delivery and other.
>                                (Note that I've included here a brief
>                         mention of mobile
>                                Internet access... I notice that the
>                         overall document seems
>                                rather to ignore mobile Internet which
>                         is emerging as the
>                                dominant Internet access means in many
>                         parts of the world.
>                                I'm not exactly sure how that impacts
>                         on other parts of this
>                                document but as the document proceeds
>                         it should be done in
>                                full awareness of the potential of this
>                         as an issue.
>                                Best to all,
>                                Mike
>                                Michael Gurstein, Ph.D.
>                                Director: Centre for Community
>                         Informatics Research,
>                                Development and Training
>                                Vancouver, CANADA
>                                http://www.communityinformatics.net
>                                CA tel. +1-604-602-0624
>                         _______________
>                         _______________________________________________
>                         IRP mailing list
>                         IRP at lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org
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>                         ghtsandprinciples.org
>                 --
>                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>                 anriette esterhuysen -
>                 ?executive director
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